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Jason Schreier & video games : Only the truth (interview PART II)

Il faut beaucoup de passion pour travailler dans le jeu vidéo à en croire les témoignages recueillis par Jason Schreier. Travailler le jour et la nuit, les week-ends et ce pendant plusieurs mois n’est pas rare. Le fameux crunch fait encore des ravages dans des entreprises du jeu vidéo pourtant parfois millionnaires mais qui continuent à se comporter comme une bande de gamins faisant un jeu dans leur garage au début des années 80. Parmi tous les folklores du jeu vidéo, ce n’est peut-être pas celui qui mérite de continuer.

Suite de l’interview du journaliste américain de Kotaku et désormais auteur du livre bien nommé Blood, Sweat, and Pixels (Du Sang, des larmes et des pixels en français)

Première partie à lire ici

About working long hours in video games…


Bliss :
Reading your book, we learn that working in video games is not a happy glamorous life, isn’t it ?

Jason Schreier : No, for sure.

Bliss : What does it mean if you want to work in video games today compared like, say, ten years ago when you started reporting the video game industry ?

J.S. : I think it’s gotten better. In large part because people are talking about the crunch culture a lot more, the overtime, the excruciating hours. I think people are more aware. The companies are trying a little bit harder but people have to be very aware that in making games they’re getting into this world that is brutal.

Bliss : In France we have several video game schools, and I’m not sure they teach that to their students. For instance you wrote that a studio used to work 100 hours a week for one year ! In France that would be probably impossible…

J.S. : Even in France it could happened I think. I just read that the studio Eugen Systems went on strike here ? So I’m sure it’s the same here. I also read about Quantic Dreams problems, the overtime, the work conditions…

Bliss : But it’s really the first time in France since the late 90s and the Ubisoft Ubi Free uprising (not counting Eden Games short strike in 2011 for layouts. In 2018 it’s just about a few guys complaining, certainly rightly so but in an almost confidential way. Did it come to that point in the States ? No public revelations, controversies or strikes ?

J.S. : Oh yeah, of course. There are definitely controversies.

Bliss : It’s not very much reported on the video games web sites…

J.S. : Well because it became just like standard : of course people are crunching, of course people are working hard, it’s just like normal. It’s considered normal in the state of things. It’s unfortunate but yes it’s a problem. Something people should be aware of if they’re thinking about working in video games that’s for sure.

Bliss : Some of your quotes in the book are crazy : « Making a game is like making a construction during an earthquake » ? « Everyone who makes video games has to crunch, sacrifice personal lives dans family ». « Every single video game is made under abnormal circumstances »
« Still those same people can’t imagine doing anything else »…

J.S. : (Laughs)

Bliss : So it’s not glamorous but it could be like a rock’n roll full life or carrier but it’s not even that. It’s a cliché but people making games are really just sitting in front of a computer…

J.S. : Yes. But it’s fun. I didn’t make games but I imagine it’s a lot of fun too. Be part of a creative atmosphere and knowing that you’re making something that potentially millions of people could play and enjoy. You get to go to an office everyday and make video games and test video games and play video games so it does have a certain appeal. I understand why people do it despite all of the hardship.

Bliss : Did you get that vibe when you visited those studios ? That the people are really enjoying what they’re doing ?

J.S. : Yes, but it depends of what type of job you have in the game industry, what the personalities are like. I think that one of the reasons that crunch culture is able to fester is because people are so passionate about their job that they’re willing to put on extra hours. And a lot of it is people volunteering to put extra hours. They’re working because they want to stay after work and putting all that extra time. They want to work nights and week-ends. They know they really want to get their favorite feature in the game or something like that. I think that part of the problem is that with this much passion people can end up hurting themselves, or hurting their families.

Bliss : You say they do that to themselves and it’s not a corporate decision…

J.S. : It’s a mixed of both. In some studios there might be bad management that’s leading to it. I heard some people arguing about the fact that anytime you have to work overtime it’s the result of bad management. But some people think it’s the direct result of people just wanting to stay and put extra time to make sure they’re really care about making their games as good as possible.

Bliss : So you heard about Quantic Dreams problems, and supposedly management and coworkers harassments. Some people also suffered from some bad jokes inside. I wasn’t surprised personally because it sounds like college immature bad jokes for the most part… Not to run in their defense but do you think it’s the same in about any studios in the world ?

J.S. : Like I said, this college frat house mentality is like how the industry started. And then overtime it became more and more professional and more like an office with proper HR department. But I’m sure there are still after college jokes and immature stuff at studio’s. But it’s becoming less and less common over time. It feels like the video game industry is growing and getting more mature over time. I’m sure it still happens as we saw at Quantic Dream’s and I’m sure there are other studios where the same thing happens. I’m sure the same thing happens in other companies in all sorts of industries. It’s getting better at least. It’s good when people are exposing that sort of things. I think that’s how you fight it. Publicly report it.

Bliss : Do you think it might hurt the sales of Quantic Dream’s game (Detroit : Become Human, just out) ?

J.S. : No. I think it’s for the best for the studio to have that sort of thing reported. If people in a game studios have to deal with an uncomfortable situation, the founders sending around jokes or whatever, then it needs to be reported. I think it’s more important to care about the people who are working there than to care about the sales.

About the lack of women working in the video game industry…


Bliss :
At the beginning of your book you said that you were sorry because you didn’t talk to many women in the industry…

J.S. : Unfortunately, no ! The biggest problem in the game industry is that there are not enough women in positions of power at the top of studios, and management positions. One of the things you saw in the book is that it’s a very male dominated industry. EA has one studio in Canada that is entirely driven by women, studio heads and the women at the top positions there (EA Motive in Montreal). We’re seeing progress but it’s not moving perfectly.

Bliss : But where does it start ? Is it because there are not enough women interested in video games, or is it some kind of male selection at the door ?

J.S. : I think it’s just related to the eighties. The video game culture started with people in their twenties, teenagers male leaving all together in the house drinking diet coke and eating pizzas while they make video games. They probably smelled terrible…(laughs) That was the original video game industry and it’s only recently that it’s become more professionalized, less okay with that to be the atmosphere. It’s been a very gradual shift for women starting to get more opportunities to rise up and have carriers in the video game industry. I think it was much tougher back then. It’s still tough but it’s gradually improving overtime.

Bliss : Did you have any report about sexual harassments ? Could it be something women know and they don’t go into this industry because of it ?

J.S. : There is definitely sexual harassments. You hear people talk about it a lot about’ especially since the #Metoo movement. A lot of women use some private whisper networks where they talk privately about men to stay away from them, that sort of things. We haven’t seen something like a Harvey Weinstein big story in the video game industry, but I’m sure they are out-there.

About making games and winning the lottery…


Bliss :
Do you have any knowledge or a feel about the percentage of people going in this industry for the love of the games or for the money ? Like some kind of jackpot if the game becomes a sale miracle or an insta fortune like Notch/Markus Persson won when he sold Minecraft to Microsoft… ?

J.S. : I think it would be rare to find people who’d be just in it for the money because you have better chances of buying a lottery ticket or something. Stardew Valley is the one case where someone works on something for five years and suddenly he’s a multi millionnaire. That only happened because he was passionate and loved video games. He didn’t really care about money. I don’t think it’s very common to see people being in video games just for the paycheck because I don’t think the paycheck is big enough to justify that. Those that are there for the paycheck might as well go work for a bank or something…

Bliss : You don’t think that part of the drive to go in the game industry might be to get the money that a big success can bring ?

J.S. : Everybody wants to support their families but I think that people are going to games because they love games. The salary is very descent in games from what I’ve seen in the US, especially in some of the biggest cities, but it’s not that lucrative like in a field where you would make tons of money.

Bliss : There are some guys in your book that definitely want to make a Nintendo game, that’s their dream, so those ones are not here for the bucks but to make a special game they love. But I guess there are some people trying to mock up the Blizzard/World of Warcraft model for instance, making one big game service for a long time, more like a business model than a « game ».

J.S. : In the world of console games, probably not. But in the phone world, the mobile world, I think they are a lot of people that want to get rich quick. Like making a Candy Crush or the new Angry Birds or whatever. But now it’s been so oversaturated, the library of mobile games is so big that you can’t even notice any game that are coming out. So yeah in that world I think there are people here to make a buck not games.

Bliss : In the 80s and 90s legend, the first thing American game developers did when they made some money, was to buy a fancy car. At least in the US. So does this tradition go on now ? Did you notice any expensive cars, Ferraris or Lamborghinis on the studio’s parking lots you had access to ?

J.S. : No not really. The ones that I went to were not super rich studios. When I met Eric Barone who made Stardew Valley, his car didn’t even work properly. The driver seat door was jammed so he had to go around to the passenger seat to get in (laughs) ! He’s not interested in money. I spoke to him recently and he still lives in a house with two roommates and his girlfriend. And he has like 20 millions in his bank account (laughs). He just doesn’t care.

About not loosing the game magic…


Bliss :
Do you think that the more we know about how games are made we loose the magic of playing the game ? Do you loose that magic the more you know about that… blood, sweat and pixel tears that are apparently required to make games ?

J.S. : No. Not at all. I appreciate it more. I’m playing the new God of War game and I look around for the little things and I think in my head about the amount of work that went into each little details in the game. Or I’m seeing the tricks that they are using. I really makes me appreciate things so much more. I feel like I’m a more educated game player. I’m seeing the things they are doing and it’s still so impressive even when you know the amount of work that went into it.

Bliss : It increases the pleasure of the player.

J.S. : I think so.

Bliss : Are you sure there are that many people who wants to know how are things done in the background ? For instance in movies, all the making of bonus on DVDs and Blu-rays are only seen by a fraction of the movie audience.

J.S. : From what I’ve seen, a lot of people like to find the behind the scene stories. How they did Atreus (God of War’s son) for instance. There is a lot of appetite for that kind of details.

Bliss : So you’re going back to writing a book and still being a game journalist daily ? Are you keeping both activities simultaneously ?

J.S. : Yes. It’s a little crazy (laughs), but that’s the plan.

Bliss : Would you consider doing some games yourself now that you know how it works ?

J.S. : No. I’ve never been really interested in that. I’m more interested in journalism. That’s what I always wanted to do as a kid. I always wanted to be a « writer ».

Jason Schreier & video games : Just the truth (interview PART I)

François Bliss de la Boissière

(Recorded April 17 2018 in Paris)

DU SANG DES LARMES ET DES PIXELS par Jason Schreier

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Jason Schreier & video games : Just the truth (interview PART I)

Journaliste new-yorkais spécialisé jeux vidéo et désormais « auteur », depuis la sortie de son livre Blood, Sweat & Pixels en septembre 2017 aux USA, le new-yorkais Jason Schreier est venu à Paris présenter l’édition française de son livre *. Une démarche un peu inattendue, voire incestueuse dans le milieu des journalistes jeux vidéo qui connaissent normalement le même sujet sur le bout des doigts. Cela étant dit, Jason a vraiment travaillé son affaire. Le bouquin regorge de détails intéressants sur la réalisation de 10 jeux, même quand on est familier des studios en question. Alors plutôt que de lui faire répéter les anecdotes « gaming » que chacun peut trouver dans le livre, j’ai préféré l’interroger sur le making of du bouquin et connaître son regard d’américain sur l’évolution de l’industrie du jeu vidéo.

Comme j’en ai l’habitude, on trouvera ici en deux parties l’intégral de cet entretien en anglais original. Une toute petite partie synthétique doit être publiée en français dans un mensuel. Je traduirais l’ensemble en français un jour ou l’autre.

DU SANG DES LARMES ET DES PIXELS par Jason Schreier

About becoming a game journalist…


Bliss :
When and how did you start writing about games ?

Jason Schreier : I think it was 2008 or 2009… I’m 31 now, so 10 years ago I started freelancing for different websites… I’ve always been interested in doing journalism, and writing, so after I graduated from college in New York University I was doing freelance writing on any subjects. And I was very bored because I was going to meetings, like local government meetings, city councils and stuff like that, out of my mind bored. Eventually I thought that I should write about something more interesting like, say, video games. I decided to look if it was possible and I started freelancing for video games websites. I would send emails to every websites I could find and pitched myself to them that I could do reviews. At some point I got a job writing for Wired and their magazine and their website. I was a contributing writer for a couple of years when I got an email from Stephen Totilo (Kotaku Editor In chief) asking « Do you want to come to work for me ?». And I have been writing for Kotaku for six and a half years now.

Bliss : You’ve been recruited by Kotaku from Wired ? Not bad. At Wired you wrote about games or other subjects ?

J.S. : No, only about games. Game culture, game industry, the stuff I was most interested in.

Bliss : Do you have some special convincing skills that you used to convince Wired to let you in and then convince all the games studios you talked to to write your book ?

J.S. : The quality is just being very annoying (big laughs). Just bugging them over and over (laughs). But it’s a lot of things. I think I try to be very fair, they know that if I write about them it’s going to be fair, truthful and honest and that I’m not going lie or anything. They know I’ll treat them fairly. I think that’s the big part of it.

Bliss : Also because you previously wrote for Wired or Kotaku…

J.S. : Most of them are familiar with the stuff I was doing for Kotaku so they already knew me, yes.

Bliss : Kotaku is part of a network (Gizmodo Media Group ex Gawker). Do you have any constrains or obligations regarding to this group, or are you free to write what you want ? Is there a company higher hierarchy you have to answer to ?

J.S. : We’re part of a bigger company. The company’s decisions affect us all and we have sisters sites that are all part of a family so to speak, but nobody comes up and says « you can’t write about this and you should write about this ». I don’t think I would work, I think I would quit if someone would tell me I can’t write about this. Especially if it was… because « we have advertisers that won’t be happy ».

Bliss : So it doesn’t happen ?

J.S. : No. It’s never happened to me fortunately.

Bliss : Sorry also for this question but as a journalist are you on a monthly salary or freelancing ?

J.S. : No, regularly salary, yearly we call it in the States. The paycheck is twice a month.

Bliss : The book is out since September 2017 in the US, how is it doing ? You have some numbers to share ?

J.S. : It’s doing alright. I can’t show numbers but I just agreed to make a second book so it did well enough.

Bliss : The second book will be a follow up on the first ?

J.S. : It’s going to be a little different, but it will still be about video games. We’re still trying to figure it out so I don’t want to talk too much about it because I’m still like structuring and figuring out the best way to do it. But it will be about games and I’ll talk to people who make games and that sort of thing.

Bliss : How come as a journalist you had an agent ? How did this happen ?

J.S. : In the States, in order to sell a book to a big publisher, you need an agent. My agent, Charlie Olsen, and I knew each other before. We encountered each other and had a drink in the past. One day he emailed me after an article I wrote about Destiny in octobre 2015, and said : « We should talk about doing a book like this ». So he and I talked, we had a couple of meetings at lunch and formulate a plan. And what we did was, we made an outline and we took that around to different book publishers. Because the processing in the States is you : pitch it to book publishers, some will say yes and some will say no. And that’s what the agent is for, he handles the business side and negotiations side. So Harper Collins liked the idea, we met with them a couple of times, they really like it and that what lead to the book.

Bliss : It took two years to write the book. Did you keep your job as journalist at the same time ?

J.S. : Yes, it was a little tense (laughs). I had a little bit of time off to make reporting trips to some studios and fit into the schedule. But the writing itself I did on nights and week-ends mostly. Outside of Kotaku work.

Bliss : When you work for Kotaku do you have to go to the office dayly or do your work from home ? How does it work ?

J.S. : I go to the office pretty often yeah. I’ll say once a week or so.

Bliss : It’s not like you have to be there everyday ?

J.S. : My boss prefers it when I’m here but I say « hey can I work from home ? »…

Bliss : Just like a freelancer journalist then.

J.S. : Yeah (laughs).

About writing a book about game studios


Bliss :
You interviewed around a hundred people… Is everybody named in the book ?

J.S. : No, not everybody. I would say like 80% are named in the book. The Destiny chapter and the Star Wars 1313 chapters were the two with the more anonymous people. I named a few people but some stayed anonymously.

Bliss : Your investigations were authorized, yes ? You didn’t go undercover anywhere.

J.S. : Yes. No I didn’t go undercover. I think it would be a little difficult to do.

Bliss : But the people you talked to without revealing their names, you had to talk to them without anybody knowing…

J.S. : Right. The studios were involved in most of the chapters in the book. They let me in and I talked to the people working on Dragon Age or Uncharted. So I went to those studios, and sat there, and interviewed people. They were okay with it and officially approving it. With Destiny, like I mentioned, they didn’t want to participate. They don’t like me because I reported on their games too much (laughs). The people at Bungie’s who made the game didn’t want anything to do with my book, so I had to go around them, and talk to people who weren’t necessary supposed to be talking to me.

Bliss : How did you find those people then ?

J.S. : Mmm different ways. The people I known from previous reporting or people I knew I just reached out to.

Bliss : Did some studios asked to read your writing for approval or some sort before publishing ?

J.S. : If people would’ve asked I wouldn’t let them. I don’t know if anybody asked but I think they would all know I wouldn’t let them do that. A couple of people asked to fact check. If someone might say « can I see this quote juste to make sure you quoted me correctly » I would say « okay, but you can’t change it because you already said it ». So they said « fine ». But nobody has read the book before it came out.

Bliss : Did you sign any NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) before talking to people or visiting studios ?

J.S. : Well, to get inside some of the studios, they make you sign some paperwork saying « If you happen to see some secret thing in the corner then you can’t report it »

Bliss : How do you know it’s secret or not ?

J.S. : (laughs) That’s the question, right ?

Mana Books representative present in the room : If you see a PS5 on a box then you know… (laughs)

J.S. : Exactly. I went to EA’s before they announced Bioware’s Anthem, so they wanted to make sure I wouldn’t sneak around and see it. So they only allowed me on one floor of the building. They didn’t let me go upstairs.

Bliss : Did you spot anything interesting at the time ?

J.S. : No. It worked (laughs)

Bliss : While writing the book did you worry about loosing credibility as a game journalist, or trust from the game developers because you might reveal anything ? There are some critical moments when you write about Bungie, Microsoft…

J.S. : The purpose of the book is not to report on leaks or scams or anything like that. I knew that some people would be a little anxious for a couple of chapters. But no, I wasn’t too worried about it. Because all that matters is that it’s the truth, right ? The truth will always stands out.

Bliss : Did you get any backlash from any studios once the book was finished ?

J.S. : No, not really. If there was a backlash they are quiet about it. They just don’t talk.

Bliss : No studios pulled any PR stunt saying this or this is wrong, « this is not an accurate vision of our studio » ?

J.S. : No, I mean I tried to be very thorough making sure that everything is accurate as possible

Bliss : So they couldn’t deny anything…

J.S. : Exactly.

Bliss : So your thing is bullet proof ?

J.S. : I hope so (laughs).

Bliss : Did you have some inputs or comments once the book was out ? From the people who are working in those studios for instance ?

J.S. : Yes, I got a lot of comments. Some people send me emails like « oh yeah I read your book » and wanted to say nice things.

Jason Schreier : Only the truth (interview Part II)

François Bliss de la Boissière

(Recorded April 17 2018 in Paris)


Message to the readers. You liked this article, it distracted you for a while, informed you or helped in your research? Please say thank you with some thumbs up bellow and some $ or € with the Paypal yellow secured button (Visa is working also). No minimum required.